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> <channel><title>Comments on: Homeless with shared residence order</title> <atom:link href="http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" /><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/</link> <description>Housing law news and comment</description> <lastBuildDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 14:36:47 +0000</lastBuildDate> <sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod> <sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency> <generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=</generator> <item><title>By: NL</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1237</link> <dc:creator>NL</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 15:37:23 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1237</guid> <description>Donna,
Yes - The House of Lords decided that a shared residence order did not mean that the children were necessarily part of the household for homeless application purposes. We wrote about it &lt;a href=&quot;http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2009/02/were-not-in-sparta-any-more/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donna,<br
/> Yes &#8211; The House of Lords decided that a shared residence order did not mean that the children were necessarily part of the household for homeless application purposes. We wrote about it <a
href="http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2009/02/were-not-in-sparta-any-more/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Donna</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1236</link> <dc:creator>Donna</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 15:06:00 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1236</guid> <description>i have 4 children 3 with my ex husband we have a court order for shared residence we equally have all three children 7 out of 14 nights, i am living in a 1 bed apartment run by homeless help even thou i have a court order ive been told because i dont claim for the children then its not there responsiblity 2 help house the children, im even having difficulty with them being allowed to stay there with me. so even with a court order they still wont help you
thanks</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i have 4 children 3 with my ex husband we have a court order for shared residence we equally have all three children 7 out of 14 nights, i am living in a 1 bed apartment run by homeless help even thou i have a court order ive been told because i dont claim for the children then its not there responsiblity 2 help house the children, im even having difficulty with them being allowed to stay there with me. so even with a court order they still wont help you<br
/> thanks</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Nearly Legal</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1235</link> <dc:creator>Nearly Legal</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 07:53:28 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1235</guid> <description>@Annie: I can&#039;t give advice on individual matters on the blog. In any case, this is a family law matter, outside my field.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Annie: I can&#8217;t give advice on individual matters on the blog. In any case, this is a family law matter, outside my field.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Annie</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1234</link> <dc:creator>Annie</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 05 Jul 2008 04:18:56 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1234</guid> <description>My son and his girlfriend split 6 weeks ago.
The girlfriend left the family home with their youngest, and left my son with the oldest child, being nearly 3 years of age. At first, the girlfriend made a statement to the court saying that she would care for the youngest, and that my son would care for the oldest. We hear in the grapevine that despite her already allowing this, and her already being in two homes in that time, and ment to be going into a 2 bed property soon, that she is going for sole custody of both children despite her only seeing the oldest child on her own once.
how do courts decide if a joint order is possible? It would stop alot of heartache, and in particular my sons&#039; oldest child is very happy as he has always been in the family home.
Would the courts be in favour of joint residence moreso where both parents live in the same town.
Please help.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My son and his girlfriend split 6 weeks ago.<br
/> The girlfriend left the family home with their youngest, and left my son with the oldest child, being nearly 3 years of age. At first, the girlfriend made a statement to the court saying that she would care for the youngest, and that my son would care for the oldest. We hear in the grapevine that despite her already allowing this, and her already being in two homes in that time, and ment to be going into a 2 bed property soon, that she is going for sole custody of both children despite her only seeing the oldest child on her own once.<br
/> how do courts decide if a joint order is possible? It would stop alot of heartache, and in particular my sons&#8217; oldest child is very happy as he has always been in the family home.<br
/> Would the courts be in favour of joint residence moreso where both parents live in the same town.<br
/> Please help.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Holmes to the Lords at Nearly Legal</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1233</link> <dc:creator>Holmes to the Lords at Nearly Legal</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2008 11:58:24 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1233</guid> <description>[...] to Mark P for noticing that Holmes-Moorhouse v LB Richmond is going to the House of Lords. Richmond sought and have been granted permission. I think this [...]</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to Mark P for noticing that Holmes-Moorhouse v LB Richmond is going to the House of Lords. Richmond sought and have been granted permission. I think this [...]</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: Mark P</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1232</link> <dc:creator>Mark P</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:58:37 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1232</guid> <description>I see from the Inside Housing news feed that Richmond Upon Thames have obtained leave to appeal to the Lords.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see from the Inside Housing news feed that Richmond Upon Thames have obtained leave to appeal to the Lords.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: tanya</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1231</link> <dc:creator>tanya</dc:creator> <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 16:42:38 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1231</guid> <description>This is very much like whats happening to me at present , im soul tennant of my home .but my ex partener lives with me and refuses to leave ,he claims no benefits and lives off mine.......he has applied for a residence order against me for my four children three of whom are his the eldest being mine form a previous relationship.
YET he is technically homeless and is only doing this so the local authourity will be forced to home him, my solicitor has apllied for an occupation order at the same time on my behalf so that i dont lose my house if he gets residence, as i feel if this happens they(local housing authority) will take my house and give it to him......
we have had ahousing officer who refuses as mentioned to belive in shared care seeing as mentioned before that it is acase of staying with one and living with the other, most local athourities seem to take the view that shared care is only access,they should be forced by the courts not to take this stance in my opinion as shared care is just that, shared care.
IVE EVEN OFFERED my ex shared care if he moved out but because the local authority take the view that the children are catered for they have no obligation to house him.
which brought him to take on the stance of applying for aresidence order only so he can then get a house ....
im curious as to what would happen if he wins residence and i win occupation .</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very much like whats happening to me at present , im soul tennant of my home .but my ex partener lives with me and refuses to leave ,he claims no benefits and lives off mine&#8230;&#8230;.he has applied for a residence order against me for my four children three of whom are his the eldest being mine form a previous relationship.<br
/> YET he is technically homeless and is only doing this so the local authourity will be forced to home him, my solicitor has apllied for an occupation order at the same time on my behalf so that i dont lose my house if he gets residence, as i feel if this happens they(local housing authority) will take my house and give it to him&#8230;&#8230;<br
/> we have had ahousing officer who refuses as mentioned to belive in shared care seeing as mentioned before that it is acase of staying with one and living with the other, most local athourities seem to take the view that shared care is only access,they should be forced by the courts not to take this stance in my opinion as shared care is just that, shared care.<br
/> IVE EVEN OFFERED my ex shared care if he moved out but because the local authority take the view that the children are catered for they have no obligation to house him.<br
/> which brought him to take on the stance of applying for aresidence order only so he can then get a house &#8230;.<br
/> im curious as to what would happen if he wins residence and i win occupation .</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: contact</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1230</link> <dc:creator>contact</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:12:40 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1230</guid> <description>William, I&#039;d have to agree with you on the unanswered issues. Local Authorities will very likely take 50/50 as a minimum on consent orders, even though the judgment clearly doesn&#039;t set that proportion.
The criterea of &#039;residence&#039; will also be a problem, although a Court order resulting from a contested hearing will, in terms of this judgment, be very hard for a local authority to argue with, even if not 50/50.
There will be more cases on this, I have no doubt.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William, I&#8217;d have to agree with you on the unanswered issues. Local Authorities will very likely take 50/50 as a minimum on consent orders, even though the judgment clearly doesn&#8217;t set that proportion.</p><p>The criterea of &#8216;residence&#8217; will also be a problem, although a Court order resulting from a contested hearing will, in terms of this judgment, be very hard for a local authority to argue with, even if not 50/50.</p><p>There will be more cases on this, I have no doubt.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: William Flack</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1229</link> <dc:creator>William Flack</dc:creator> <pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:21:57 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1229</guid> <description>The questions which are left crying out to be answered by this judgment are:
1.	How much less than 50% of the time can a child spend with a homeless applicant before they can lawfully be treated as not residing with them? And
2.	If residence is not measured in time then what are the criteria for determining when a child is residing with a parent as opposed to staying with them?
Paragraph 48 of the judgment clearly envisages that a child can still reside with a second parent even though they spend less than 50% of the time with them. This means that it is not simply a question of time. This is just as well because in practice a 50-50 split is not going to be achievable. A handover at precisely midday on Wednesday for instance is likely to be impossible to achieve once let alone to repeat every week. Equally in practice the arrangements made by separated parents are such that the child usually spends sufficiently less than half the week with the second parent for the local authority to be able to treat that arrangement as staying contact rather than residence. It is therefore unlikely that it will be possible to run many test cases concerning 49% or 40% arrangements being claimed as residence.
On a public policy level I would have thought that the Courts are going to be extremely reluctant to allow challenges of authority decisions in this area where doing so would open the floodgates of families requiring a second property where the parents split.
Perhaps the question cannot be answered at all in terms of establishing a general rule to be applied to all families based on the amount of time which the child spends in each household. Instead I would expect that the general proposition will continue to be that a child can only be treated as residing (by agreement rather than pursuant to an Order) with one parent unless there are exceptional circumstances which mean that the child has to spend a lot of time living in two places. It is hard to think of an example but a medical condition which meant that one parent might be incapacitated for say two or three days each week might be a possibility.
My answer to the two questions (without reference to any authorities I am afraid) are:-
1. Very little indeed
2. Only very exceptional circumstances.
I would be very interested to know if any family lawyers out there can give examples of arrangements which led to the Courts making shared residence orders where that was not agreed. Presumably these will give some guidance as to what the exceptional circumstances might be.
I would suggest that if families with more than one child are splitting up and thinking of how best to arrange residence/contact they might think of having one child reside with each of them and sharing a room if they were both at either property at the same time. This is far from perfect but on the face of it both parents would be entitled to be housed under the homelessness legislation as they would each have a child residing with them. Clearly there would have to be evidence such as who received Child Benefit and where the schools recorded the children as living. I can&#039;t say whether this arrangment would be seen to be in the children&#039;s interests or a scam to get a property for each parent.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The questions which are left crying out to be answered by this judgment are:</p><p>1.	How much less than 50% of the time can a child spend with a homeless applicant before they can lawfully be treated as not residing with them? And</p><p>2.	If residence is not measured in time then what are the criteria for determining when a child is residing with a parent as opposed to staying with them?</p><p>Paragraph 48 of the judgment clearly envisages that a child can still reside with a second parent even though they spend less than 50% of the time with them. This means that it is not simply a question of time. This is just as well because in practice a 50-50 split is not going to be achievable. A handover at precisely midday on Wednesday for instance is likely to be impossible to achieve once let alone to repeat every week. Equally in practice the arrangements made by separated parents are such that the child usually spends sufficiently less than half the week with the second parent for the local authority to be able to treat that arrangement as staying contact rather than residence. It is therefore unlikely that it will be possible to run many test cases concerning 49% or 40% arrangements being claimed as residence.</p><p>On a public policy level I would have thought that the Courts are going to be extremely reluctant to allow challenges of authority decisions in this area where doing so would open the floodgates of families requiring a second property where the parents split.</p><p>Perhaps the question cannot be answered at all in terms of establishing a general rule to be applied to all families based on the amount of time which the child spends in each household. Instead I would expect that the general proposition will continue to be that a child can only be treated as residing (by agreement rather than pursuant to an Order) with one parent unless there are exceptional circumstances which mean that the child has to spend a lot of time living in two places. It is hard to think of an example but a medical condition which meant that one parent might be incapacitated for say two or three days each week might be a possibility.</p><p>My answer to the two questions (without reference to any authorities I am afraid) are:-</p><p>1. Very little indeed<br
/> 2. Only very exceptional circumstances.</p><p>I would be very interested to know if any family lawyers out there can give examples of arrangements which led to the Courts making shared residence orders where that was not agreed. Presumably these will give some guidance as to what the exceptional circumstances might be.</p><p>I would suggest that if families with more than one child are splitting up and thinking of how best to arrange residence/contact they might think of having one child reside with each of them and sharing a room if they were both at either property at the same time. This is far from perfect but on the face of it both parents would be entitled to be housed under the homelessness legislation as they would each have a child residing with them. Clearly there would have to be evidence such as who received Child Benefit and where the schools recorded the children as living. I can&#8217;t say whether this arrangment would be seen to be in the children&#8217;s interests or a scam to get a property for each parent.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> <item><title>By: contact</title><link>http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1227</link> <dc:creator>contact</dc:creator> <pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:53:50 +0000</pubDate> <guid
isPermaLink="false">http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2007/10/homeless-with-shared-residence-order/#comment-1227</guid> <description>I&#039;m not saying that an Order is necessary, but I can see huge difficulties with a homeless application without one. And the trouble is it falls under the legitimate consideration of facts by the Local Authority, so a bit tricky to take to a County Court Appeal on a point of law under s.204 Housing Act 1996 if refused on first decision and review - not impossible though.</description> <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not saying that an Order is necessary, but I can see huge difficulties with a homeless application without one. And the trouble is it falls under the legitimate consideration of facts by the Local Authority, so a bit tricky to take to a County Court Appeal on a point of law under s.204 Housing Act 1996 if refused on first decision and review &#8211; not impossible though.</p> ]]></content:encoded> </item> </channel> </rss>
